The first 1000 pound bomb that hit, split the left horizontal tail stabilizer, causing the bomber to enter an uncontrollable turn at 13,000 feet, which exceeded the starboard wing's strength to remain intact due to centripetal force and torque
the starboard wing snapped outboard the engines, and with such a large amount of opposite horizontal surfaces lost, the plane began to yaw then pitch and then spin into a corkscrew roll, belly up and over
'Miss Donna Mae' was assigned to the 331 Bomber Squadron/ 94th Bomber Group [QE-A] Rougham Dec 20th 1943; and hit by bombs from 'Trudy' who was flying directly above, knocking off left rudder, then wing broke off as it spun to earth, crashed in Berlin, Germany May 1944
http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/5646
It was not uncommon for this to happen. They flew in close formation.With flack etc and the high danger of daylight missions those flying did their best in the second highest attrition rate combat zone. They were brave not stupid
ReplyDeleteWith all the common issues you mentioned, flack, daylight mission, and close formation so all bombs hit the same target... there simply is no reason to fly OVER your squadrons other plane. A plane happens to have all 4 zones of maneuverability. It can be higher than another, it can be behind or in front of another, it can be on another course/heading/direction than another and it can be to one side or the other of another. It is not limited in it's maneuverability, but even it it were, and could only change it's speed, or its altitude, it still DOES NOT HAVE TO STAY DIRECTLY ABOVE LIKE A MORON and drop it's bombs onto the other planes in the squadron. That's STUPID. Killing the guys you share an airfield with.... STUPID. Why? It's so damn easily prevented. All airplanes could be on the same course, and at different altitudes, and ahead of or behind each other, at the same speed, so long as they are nose to tail distance in front or behind, like a train with many box cars, and all drop their bombs effectively with zero interference hits. There is no excuse for flying right over another plane, they all have throttle controls to adjust speed, they all have rudder controls to adjust how far they fly to the left or right of each other on the same course. NO ONE has ever given you cause to defend their bravery, so don't jump to conclusions as to my respect for their bravery. That's not even a part of this. You're defending this, when it's as simple as a squadron of soldiers all walking to an enemy position and shooting everyone in front of themselves, in the back, because they were all on the same exact direction in formation. No one is that stupid to blindly shoot at an enemy, regardless of the guy directly in front of themselves, because they are in formation. That's the same as flying in formation and dropping bombs.
DeleteGetting back to reply again, the majority were brave, as no one will deny, or argue. But stupid? You already said this wasn't uncommon. Therefor you state this was common. And that, Bill, is stupid. Any one in the crew could have taken a look down the bomb bay doors BEFORE letting the payload loose, and seen that no interference would occur, or that someone was right under them. The belly gunner could. They were all on the same intercom, and could hear anything said about an All Clear - or - Hold Up. Simple, effective. Nothing but saving lives, using brains, and getting the job done.
DeleteTo not take a simple precaution of looking downrange, is stupid. I assume you've been on a shooting range? Maybe even at a rangemaster ran shooting range? What's the first thing emphasized? Safety. Shoot nothing you do not want to kill, double check that the field is clear, and all shooters are behind the firing line.
It's fundamental
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
ReplyDeleteIt goes without saying that bombing a plane of your own squadron is not the deaired outcome.
B17's had very big, visible and known weak points. All Luftwaffe fighter pilots knew about these weak points. In order to protect these weak pointsaircraft had to fly in very tight formations (so that one plane could cover the weak points of the other).
If they had used your "great" idea of putting all the planes in a row that would have garantied that NO plane reached their bombing target!
Also, please remember that NONE of these planes had radar. There was no way for the pilot flying above to know that there was an other plane below (unless one of his gunners had told him).
Finally it is always amuaing to me to see how some people feel entitled to call stupid a 20something year old kid flying a piece of equipment that most people would be afraid to board, while fighting enemy planes, avoiding antiaircraft artillery and with the absolute certainty that a 3rd of thise that left the field would not come down!
How stupid do you have to be to critizice those HEROES from the plush heated chair you have BECAUSE of their sacrifice?
Shut up and thank them. Had it not been for their sacrifice you would be posting in German about Travants.
You're a retard. Also, you can't spell 10% of the words you used. Regardless, you already reiterated what I pointed out, how god damn simple the solution is, have the belly gunner, or the guy in the bomb bay, report to the pilot... as they are all on intercom - if anyone is under them, who might get hit by a dropping bomb. You could stop right there, as you agreed with me.
DeleteAs you also pointed out, putting the planes into coverage positions protecting each others weak spots... well? Use your brain, assuming you have one, you sure as hell don't stack the entire bombing squadron or bombing group on top of each other... nor can you rail car them one after the other... no doubt, you have no concept of a school of fish, which clusters, though with symmetry, so no fish is exactly in line with the one above, or below, or in front. It's geometry you moron. Smallest target area, best arrangement for dropping bombs without hitting anyone else.
Oh, and as a 20 year old kid, I was helming a 7200 ton submarine. I know a little something more than you do about not being a fucking retard when operating large fuselage shaped military war machines that you would be afraid to board, and crew, while avoiding enemies.
Plush heated chair? Stop by my desk sometime.
Criticize them? For this? Yes. Friendly fire killing your own troops can be criticized, if you disagree, piss off and find some other website to annoy. I posted this to memorialize the poor bastards that were killed, and to point out the idiocy that can be easily avoided in war, when you aren't being fired on, and can take the fucking time to get it right.
I've thanked many, and you're too brain dead to have noticed, that I've been criticized for posting too MANY awesome WW2 heroes and military photos. You don't have a clue, until you do, go join some snowflake protest somewhere you won't be bothered by what I do on my site.
You think I "clearly" have no idea what I'm talking about?
Delete"Clearly" you haven't looked through the 598 posts on WW2 I've done on this blog. Here's a link, or click on the WW2 tab http://justacarguy.blogspot.com/search/label/WW2
or the 778 posts on the miliary http://justacarguy.blogspot.com/search/label/Military
or the 702 posts on airplanes http://justacarguy.blogspot.com/search/label/airplane
or the 84 on B-17s, http://justacarguy.blogspot.com/search/label/B%2017
85 on B 29s, 64 on B 24s, 41 on B 25s, etc
The photo of an upside down B-17 going down is NOT "Miss Donna Mae"! The name on the nose is on an angle; it's not over Berlin; and it is a F model and not a G, "Miss D" is a B-17G!
ReplyDeleteAlso, if you've seen the moving film from which these still are taken, "Miss D" appears in the scene just as the bombs are released; he was not "flying over another B-17", it flew under him.
Why are know it alls always commenting anonymously?
DeleteRead this http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/5646
Also, I don't know why that upside down image is in the series of photos I posted, clearly its not the Donna Mae, and its over farmland, not city.
DeleteProbably it's there to illustrate the effects of bombs getting dropped on our own planes because stupid men gave stupid orders instead of simple logical formations where bombs could not hit planes, as planes would not fly UNDER each other, nor drop until the belly gunner let the bombardier know the way was clear.