Wednesday, July 20, 2016

Mauro from Veneto has researched everything about this photo


Mark in New Zealand was astonishing in his research on this photo;
The car sharing the forecourt with a biplane is a 1926 Armstrong Siddeley Broadway Saloon. Further research also established that biplane is likely a radial engined cca 1937 Blackburn Baffin Torpedo Bomber, built in Brough, Yorkshire. 29 were acquired by RNZAF and few were converted to training aircraft

http://www.svvs.org/help100.shtml


Avro 616B Avian IVM ZK-ADQ (c/n R3/CN/435) with Genet Major engine refuelling on what looks suspiciously like the main street through Saltwater Creek at Timaru.

ZK-ADQ was constructed as G-AATV for Shell Mex Company of Egypt.

It gained its UK C of A on 30-01-1930 and was cancelled in March of 1933 to take up the Egyptian marks SU-AAG. It took up its old G-AATV registration again from 12-09-1934 with Flying Officer Geoffrey Twyford Jarman of 47 Squadron RAF, Khartoum, Sudan.

Its UK registration was cancelled on 02-03-1935 and it then became ZK-ADQ on 05-05-1935 with K R Johnstone of Timaru.

Other owners that I know about were P W Wilton; Charlie Liddell of Wellington from 10-05-1942 and then Southern Cross Aviation Services Ltd from 19-05-1948.

It crashed at Willowbridge (near Waimate) on 13-06-1948 with ownership going to J H Craig on 05-07-1948 and was cancelled on 29-10-1948.

At some point it was fitted with a Cirrus Ermes II engine. I found a picture of the same plane dtd 1948.

considering the notes of NZCarned about Europa, the Todd Family business, the car period, I would date this image at 95% probability back in the middle of a Summer day of 1933 or 1934 (100% sure between 1933-1939). Summer because looking at the inclination of the sunrays.

Europa Logo was established between 1931 to 1939 but regulation for the mkt changed in 1933 most probably modifying the layout to get updated, Plume logo was modified for sure in 1939 introducing the red horse on logo. However on Exxonmobile website is stated that in 1934 was introduced a new brand (by Vacuum) named "Ethyl", Australia's first Super grade motor spirit. Then there is no trace of Ethyl writings in none of the Vacuum pumps, just Plume or plume gasoline on the first 3 pumps from left.

ABOUT EUROPA LOGO The Todd family also founded Europa an oil importing and retail business that owned terminal services at four major ports and a chain of petrol stations across New Zealand. According to the Todd Energy website, this business was founded during disruptions in the petrol industry in 1929. Europa was originally named 'Associated Motorists Petrol Company Limited' (AMPC) and was formed in 1931. The company imported petrol from the Soviet Union from 1933, and was supported by the New Zealand Farmers' Union and various regional Automobile Associations. Because of price under-cutting by overseas oil companies, the government introduced price regulation of petrol from 1933.

ABOUT PLUME LOGO The Vacuum Oil Company began operating in Australia in 1895, introducing its Plume brand of petrol in 1916. The Flying Red Horse (Pegasus) logo was introduced in 1939, and in 1954 the Plume brand was replaced by Mobilgas.

Then we are in Timaru NZ in the middle of a summer day back in 1933 or 1934 (95% sure). We have a Armstrong Siddeley Broadway Saloon which I agree 100% and a 1930 Robinson Redwing MK II for which I still have not found certainty, just 90%. Someone has some ideas? have you found this image with higehr kB? the one I am studyin on has just 181,8kB and doesn't let a good read of the pump writings.

I think it should be a Robinson Redwing MkII with engine Genet II. This kind of airplane was made for private purposes and sold on kit. In particular some planes were delivered to NZ after 1932 from the ''London Busman Flyingclub'' in Broxbourne UK. They built just 12 units and they suffered weakeness to the landing gear. The engine is a radial 5 cylinders as the Genet II is; you can find it on google. I am just not sure about the plane because the landing gear on the picture goes through the lower wing while all images found for the Redwing have the support in front of the wing. Another peculiarity is the vertical tail which has not the same shape. One of the idea I had is that the plane could have had an accident, they broke both the tail and the landing gear, therefore they reinforced it taking advantage of the fact that this plane has the possibility to be stored and the wing can bend 90° toward the tail.

16 comments:

  1. You would have lost your bet with me... Once I found your blog, I went though the entire thing...
    I also did that on the H.A.M.B over at JalopyJournal.com... Luckily I did, because the mods over there cleaned house one week and deleted thousands of pages of posts...

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  2. Have a great trip! Hope you don't need law enforcement!

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    Replies
    1. Why in the hell would I? I've survived worse than San Diego can dish out while in the nasty side of Hong Kong, Kowloon China, and South Korea cites, bars, dives and docks. What the hell do you think is going to happen to me at Comic Con? A sudden Ewok attack? Tribbles? Cosplay Spider Men? What causes you to bring up the trigger happy donut patrol?

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  3. I looked at this pic and saw the 'ROPA' on the sign on the left. It is the end of the word EUROPA, a brand of petrol (gasoline) which I think was unique to New Zealand. A quick search showed that this picture was taken in Timaru, New Zealand in the mid 1930s. All I have to do now is identify both the car and the plane. The name Sprague is familiar to many New Zealand motor racing enthusiasts. Ernie Sprague was a well known race driver in the 1960s and '70s, mostly driving English Ford Zephyrs.

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  4. From the distinctive wheels, the car is an Armstrong-Siddeley 14 from about 1928 - http://armstrongsiddeleymotors.com/14-hp/

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    Replies
    1. you, are amazing! Thanks!

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    2. Hey Nzcarnerd you are a good observer. I first excuse my English which is not still good, I hope you understand. I love this image that's why I will make a pyrography on wood with it, that's why I searched for days the biplane. I think it should be a Robinson Redwing MkII with engine Genet II. This kind of airplane was made for private purposes and sold on kit. In particular some planes were delivered to NZ after 1932 from the ''London Busman Flyingclub'' in Broxbourne UK. They built just 12 units and they suffered weakeness to the landing gear. The engine is a radial 5 cylinders as the Genet II is; you can find it on google. I am just not sure about the plane because the landing gear on the picture goes through the lower wing while all images found for the Redwing have the support in front of the wing. Another peculiarity is the vertical tail which has not the same shape. One of the idea I had is that the plane could have had an accident, they broke both the tail and the landing gear, therefore they reinforced it taking advantage of the fact that this plane has the possibility to be stored and the wing can bend 90° toward the tail. I will fire on wood the model of the airplane, that's the reason why I need to be sure about it. And thanks for having found the car model. Mauro, from Veneto-Italy.

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  5. For my previous notes, considering the notes of NZCarned about Europa, the Todd Family business, the car period, I would date this image at 95% probability back in the middle of a Summer day of 1933 or 1934 (100% sure between 1933-1939).
    Summer because looking at the inclination of the sunrays.
    Europa Logo was established between 1931 to 1939 but regulation for the mkt changed in 1933 most probably modifying the layout to get updated, Plume logo was modified for sure in 1939 introducing the red horse on logo. However on Exxonmobile website is stated that in 1934 was introduced a new brand (by Vacuum) named "Ethyl", Australia's first Super grade motor spirit. Then there is no trace of Ethyl writings in none of the Vacuum pumps, just Plume or plume gasoline on the first 3 pumps from left.
    ABOUT EUROPA LOGO The Todd family also founded Europa an oil importing and retail business that owned terminal services at four major ports and a chain of petrol stations across New Zealand. According to the Todd Energy website, this business was founded during disruptions in the petrol industry in 1929. Europa was originally named 'Associated Motorists Petrol Company Limited' (AMPC) and was formed in 1931. The company imported petrol from the Soviet Union from 1933, and was supported by the New Zealand Farmers' Union and various regional Automobile Associations. Because of price under-cutting by overseas oil companies, the government introduced price regulation of petrol from 1933.
    ABOUT PLUME LOGO The Vacuum Oil Company began operating in Australia in 1895, introducing its Plume brand of petrol in 1916. The Flying Red Horse (Pegasus) logo was introduced in 1939, and in 1954 the Plume brand was replaced by Mobilgas.
    Then we are in Timaru NZ in the middle of a summer day back in 1933 or 1934 (95% sure). We have a Armstrong Siddeley Broadway Saloon which I agree 100% and a 1930 Robinson Redwing MK II for which I still have not found certainty, just 90%. Someone has some ideas? have you found this image with higehr kB? the one I am studyin on has just 181,8kB and doesn't let a good read of the pump writings. Thanks Mauro

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. you might try a reverse image search, but no... I haven't looked for or found this image. Once I post, I move on, and I've moved on a lot since last July.

      Delete
  6. Hello Jesse, have you read the last notes a week ago? I discovered the complete history of the image. Was it interesting?

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    Replies
    1. I did read them, they are, and that was some deep research! I even responded last week to make sure you knew that I'd read it. (See above)

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    2. Hello Jesse, are you going to publish? just to know, even if nobody potentially is interested, at least for someone in future who have interest to this image, we discovered a good part of the story.
      It would be even more interesting if anyone of Timaru or the people who know about it they writes more info. Note that a picture like this is really unique, I studied many biplane pictures and I can say that 's really ''bellissima''.

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    3. Publish? You are published, right here, right now. If you can read it on the screen in front of you, you are published. Anyone in the future that reads this post, sees this image, will read these notes.

      So, what is it I'm not doing that you want me to do? I am not likely to do what ever that might be, as my priority is different than yours. I posted the image, it was researched and all the stuff that has been written about it is right here... so, I have to keep going with the stuff I have in mind to do, to see, to look up and post about today... not for a photo I posted last July.

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  7. There could be a misunderstanding then because I wrote the solution of the image describing all the story in a message much longer than the last that described the image. It seems that you haven't receive it. There must be a bug. I apologize if you were offended by my last letter, this was not my intention I just thought it was too long explaination of the story of the plane...
    Anyway 'shortly' for the picture: Avro 616B Avian IVM ZK-ADQ (c/n R3/CN/435) with Genet Major engine refuelling on what looks suspiciously like the main street through Saltwater Creek at Timaru.
    ZK-ADQ was constructed as G-AATV for Shell Mex Company of Egypt.
    It gained its UK C of A on 30-01-1930 and was cancelled in March of 1933 to take up the Egyptian marks SU-AAG.
    It took up its old G-AATV registration again from 12-09-1934 with Flying Officer Geoffrey Twyford Jarman of 47 Squadron RAF, Khartoum, Sudan.
    Its UK registration was cancelled on 02-03-1935 and it then became ZK-ADQ on 05-05-1935 with K R Johnstone of Timaru.
    Other owners that I know about were P W Wilton; Charlie Liddell of Wellington from 10-05-1942 and then Southern Cross Aviation Services Ltd from 19-05-1948.
    It crashed at Willowbridge (near Waimate) on 13-06-1948 with ownership going to J H Craig on 05-07-1948 and was cancelled on 29-10-1948.
    At some point it was fitted with a Cirrus Ermes II engine. I found a picture of the same plane dtd 1948.
    I hope that this time there will be no bugs. Mauro from Veneto

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm not offended, and I hope you aren't either. I just do not seem to be communicating what I do, to you, very well. I post, I get more info, I move on. Many months later you comment, I publish the comment under the post in the usual way, and you seem to not see it.

      That is about it. So, you keep sending me more info... ok

      Now, I don't know why, Maybe I'm not doing my share the right way... so ok

      I just took everything you wrote me, and posted it all with the photo.

      OK? You researched everything on that photo, so much more than I ever have for anything... no one will ever have a question to ask about that photo now! Thank you

      Delete
  8. Thank you Jesse :) Mauro

    ReplyDelete