Monday, September 11, 2023

every now and then, a commentor forgets just who the hell he's talking to.

You seem to be siding with the union. Does that mean you support their demand of a 46% pay increase and overtive (sic) for every hour over 32 hours per week? Can you explain how that is economically feasible?
Remarked "Curious" 

So, ok, here's my answer.

Let me dust off my masters in economics and show the charts and graphs where the union demand makes sense. 

OR, you can grow the hell up, and take a breath, and get some big picture context of a contract negotiation, plus a broad view of macro economics, AND some insight on 7 figure salary upper management of the corporations involved. 

OR, you can look at the average union worker's income, vs inflation, and how if they don't make something around 10% raise per year, effectively they make less each year as the cost of living, commuting to work, etc goes more expensive where they have stagnant wages. 

The only job of corporate upper management is to make the company more profitable, mostly, that results in employee layoffs, leveraged buyouts, mergers, and acquisitions (is my take on it) and yet, NOT to make a better car, a more profitable car, a car (or truck) that more people want to buy instead of the competitions car. Yet, Ford can't figure out how to make a car anymore, and unless it's a Mustang, they make trucks. (Am I wrong?) The company that put the world on wheels, can't figure out how to make a damn car that will sell more than all the competition that has come along in it's wake, learning from Henry's era of mass production and interchangeable parts. 

Upper management at GM, Ford, and Stellantis (Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge, Ram, Fiat) are making 7 figures, to simply earn their employer more profit at the quarterly and annual stock report meetings. Not make better cars, or cheaper cars. Just profit. 

Why is that relevant? Because so is the leadership of the union. 

Get the parallel? The union has a mission, to get the best deal for it's membership, and the corporate suits are out to get the most profit for stock holders, I support all involved in their capitalist motive to make more money. 

BUT, I also have the notion that EVERYONE non-union, all the "exempt" management, ought to be concerned with making vehicles, as a priority, over profits, that will lead to profits, and earnings for the union workers, by making vehicles that will outsell the competition. 

Each of the corporations involved HAVE A CENTURY of business acumen to learn from. There isn't much new in designing cars. They have 2 or 4 doors, an engine, a transmission, 4 wheels, brakes, cooling, airbags, air conditioning, and a stereo. 

Just put all those university degrees to work and focused on making a car that can be mass manufactured with the requirements that the federal govt have in place for crash specs (haven't changed a lot in decades) and gas mileage, for COMMUTERS. The speed limit in the USA is maxed out at 80, so, they don't need to be 200 mph. They don't need to be sub 4 second 0-60. They don't need to be 5000 pounds or more, 3 foot of clearance under the frame, over 24 feet long. 

The world needs commuters, not SUVs. 2 doors, 40 mpg or better, 4 or 5 star safety specs, with AC and a stereo, that isn't polluting out the tail pipe. 

The automotive world has made them in the past, and so there isn't a lot of redesign needed to make them better. 

Also, the point about 32 hour work week, hell, I'm all for a 4 day work week, either 32 hours a week, or 4-10s. 9-80 is good too. Plus holidays, a health care plan, etc. It's been done, it's easy to see examples around the more progressive socially focused countries. After all, no one gets a pension except white collar management. So, it's not like the companies are losing profits to pensions. They figured out (GM prime example) that was a long term losing concept. Robots replaced workers, and didn't pay into the pension system. 

But it's not my job to answer your demand. I'm Just A Car Guy. Not an economics professor, so head over to the university, ask the prof. That won't likely get you an answer either. They aren't involved in answering questions or solving problems. They too, have a focus, and that's to teach the syllabus, and publish books to get tenure. 

If you side with the union, so soon after Labor Day, coincidentally, you'll remember that Henry Ford hired goons and the police department to shoot striking union members. Tanks rolled in California to kill dock workers on strike. Unions, not corporations or companies, are the only ones looking out for blue collar workers, who trade labor for paychecks.

I'm not catagorically pro-union. Police union for example. I'm anti police union. You are probably for the police union. Just exactly who is the police union confronting over a contract? The city, the mayor? Like the police union has to do a damn thing to get a contract agreed to. Sit back, have a brat and a beer, and wait for the crime to prove to the elected leaders that it's time to get people arrested, and bingo, the police union gets a signature on the contract. 

Auto union though? They're shit out of luck. There is no union in Mexico, China, Korea (as far as I know) to push back on workplace safety issues, hourly earnings that make sense, etc, and the corporations have ALWAYS wanted to move manufacturing to other countries and away from the American middle class. Because PROFITS are more important to corporations than ANYTHING. Ford bought or partnered with European and Japanese companies, so did Chrysler. And Italian companies. And for all I know, Mexican, Brazilian, and Australian. 

I have no idea if Harley, Polaris, Can Am, etc are UAW union shops, but the many vehicles made in the USA that don't require a helmet are viable options for expensive vehicles. So is Tesla. 

I don't think the entire list of American car makers is UAW, so, if you are anti UAW, buy from them. I think it's easy to see that the immigration from Mexico, and Central America, etc is flooding into this country, and will gladly get trained to work car factories. Immigrants have ALWAYS moved to the USA for a better life. New York is SCREWED right now for being such morons to be ultra liberal in inviting illegal immigrants, so is California, WITHOUT having a program for getting them legal, trained, employed, and taxed. NO ONE GIVES A SHIT about where the neighbors are from at the ball game, the BBQ, the dock at the lake about to go fishing, on the dirt roads and trails, or helping out during a hurricane. 

ANYONE can be labor, men, women, people who speak other languages, it doesn't matter. But the govt has NO PLAN on how to put people to work to deal with wildfires, hurricanes, floods, droughts, or every other problem that comes along and costs taxpayers billions in contract work (overtime). So, if the liberals in govt, and the conservatives in business, could come up with a plan, something that gets people to work, earns tax income for the govt, and gets this country back to work producing stuff we all desire for a better life (homes, lanwmowers, boats, shoes, clothes, air conditioners, pot holes fixed (JFC train immigrants to fill potholes, and they'll be welcomed into every state, city and neighborhood), high speed railroads, inexpensive commuter cars, motorcycles)) then the elected officials will finally be doing the only job they are elected for, proper fiscal planning and operation of the country for a better life for all citizens of it. 

I figure, either we support having domestic vehicle manufacturing (cars, trucks, trikes, vans, busses, semis, rvs, tractors, dozers, motorcycles, airplanes) or we take notice of Australia's dilemma, of not having a car maker in country. 

No one making cars, bikes, trucks, and no one has a buyer for sparkplugs, (probably already only make outside the USA, I think Champion went to Mexico) alternators, tires (I don't think anyone makes tires in the USA anymore, for bikes, motorcycles, cars, trucks, etc) rims (Ditto) windows, (chrome is gone from the USA I believe) and unless you didn't notice, most of the companies that made car parts are gone, no longer in business in the USA, replaced by made in Japan, China, Mexico, Germany. 

If all vehicle parts companies go out of business, because the big 3 fail (GM and Chrysler proved that it's happened, and will happen again) the chances of getting a job in middle America at anything other than fast food are real bad. 

Steel used to mean Pennsylvania. It's done. See how fast an entire industry fails? Sure, banking will always be the playground of the rich and legacy Harvard, Princeton, Yale families, and politics are the same, but jobs? No one makes toasters, blenders, tvs, radios, etc in the USA. I doubt they make trains (certainly not like the steam locomotive days) and airplanes? Not much competition for 2 seater commuters like 80 years ago. Everything got too expensive, and companies died off. Wright, Curtiss, etc, I doubt they make planes anymore. 

If this country can't make vehicles and vehicle parts, just exactly what is it we are going to make? Bankruptcy papers? 

Can I get a Hooah? 

16 comments:

  1. Here's a thumbs up...

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  2. Hooah!!!! says the son of a union pipefitter from MI, who also was a (voluntary) member of the engineering union while at the big B aircraft company.

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  3. Yep
    NAFTA killed EVERY factory , and the few that NAFTA didnt kill, the congress and president making China the Most Favored Trade Nation finished them off.

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    1. And let’s not forget the NHTSA contribution with their CAFE fuel economy standards. The luminaries there have made domestic cars as interesting as a dog turd. They're designed and engineered today to satisfy arbitrary bureaucratic standards, not consumer demands. Furthermore, a good argument can be made that corporate boards pick auto executives based on political considerations with nice government contracts in mind.

      Back during the peanut farmers tenure he appointed one Joan Claybrook to head the NHTSA. And what were her qualifications? She had worked for six years in the Social Security Administration. She was a lawyer. She was a lobbyist. She was an associate of Ralph Nader. With that stunning background she announced the agency was going to explore, for reasons of safety mind you, the feasibility of a motorcycle that steered with the rear wheel. In their infinite wisdom the agency concluded the prototype needed outriggers (aka training wheels) to keep the shiny side up. After truckloads of money the project was quietly dropped. Joanie dear also gave us the 85 mph speedometer, based on her personal belief, not data, the lower numbers on the gauge would somehow encourage slower speeds.

      Again, these bureaucrats are the ones dictating automotive policy, not consumers.

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    2. I never heard about Claybrook! Damn, how are you not writing this blog instead of me?

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    3. Nah. You're doing just fine!

      Yes, this apparently crazy babe was one fine piece of work! She reflects perfectly the essence of the Jimmy Carter administration that resulted in his serving but a single term. A few more gems that came from her very fertile mind. 1) Ms. Claybrook was the one responsible for the disappearance of those nifty hood ornaments that used to adorn the front end of every domestic car. She considered them unsafe, theorizing that a pedestrian hit by a car could be impaled by the device, overlooking completely the fact that if the ornament got to the victim the front bumper had already done it’s work. 2) She was also taking initiatives to mandate seat belts for bikes. You can’t make stuff like this up. I hit a deer on a bike at about 60 mph the evening of October 28, 1975 with my ex on the back. Neither of us would have the breath of life we enjoy today had we been tethered to that machine. I’ll spare the details. 3) She spoke of getting rid of the motorcycle industry entirely, knowing it could not be done on a sort term basis. Her solution? Go for long term regulation that became more restrictive over time, thus discouraging consumers to the extent they would just quit riding, leaving manufacturers without a market. Talk about control freaks! 4) She also used the power of the government purse to deny any state not imposing mandatory helmet laws federal highway funds.

      As I recall, the various motorcycle magazines during her tenure had a grand time roasting this woman, and rightly so. She deserved every paragraph she got.

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  4. There is still some use for the UAW, and at this point, the union and the automakers are so co-dependent that they have to find a way to work together. However, look at all of the non-union foreign companies making vehicles in the US - Honda, Nissan, BMW, Hyundai, Mercedes, etc. They probably have their own labor issues, but they are able to build cars in the US, including some for export, while the Big 3 have to import cars from Canada, Mexico and China. Those factories and their suppliers are providing a lot of jobs and tax income for states like Ohio, Tennessee and South Carolina. And they are able to make the boring commuter cars that the Big 3 can't figure out.

    The UAW president has to know that some of their demands are bargaining chips, and he's not going to get everything he wants. He's going to ask for everything and settle for something less.

    You mentioned Champion Spark Plug. They are still making insulators in Ohio and assembling plugs in Iowa, in UAW factories. When I left there a few years ago, they had moved the low-cost plug assembly to Mexico, but the more expensive precious metal plugs were still made in the US. One thing they did that I thought was smart was that their foreign factories mainly supplied their own country or region. They had plants in France, India, China and South Korea that used some parts that came from the US and sold spark plugs in those areas. They only imported from Mexico to the US, but that may have changed. On the other hand, Autolite was assembling all of their plugs in Mexicali, MX when I started there. Before I was let go, we started to buy all of the cheap plugs from China.

    For now, there are still a lot of factories making auto parts in the Midwest and supplying to Honda, Jeep and the other car makers. Goodyear bought the Cooper Tire factory in Ohio and it's still running. I know of factories in my area making frames, spoilers, suspension parts, interior parts, batteries, metal tubing, hoses, axles and other parts. Some are probably union, some are not. Like you said, someone needs to keep building vehicles in the US or at least North America, or else those factories and their communities will be hurting.

    I haven't bought a new car in over 10 years, but I'm glad that other people do, so I can find something with low miles when it comes off lease. I do try to buy as many other items as I can that are made in the US.

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    1. there is a need for unions, but, they've obviously been problems that lead to their own obsolescence, as they are the example of what to avoid for companies not yet saddled with them.
      They haven't caused more problems than they've solved, but they really have too many examples of the upper tier union management getting greedy and stupid, and taking off or gambling away the funds.
      It's a fact that employees are screwed by companies and corporations, I think Starbucks and Walmart are good examples.
      Anyway, I'm no expert, just a car guy with a lifetime of seeing what's going on, and noticing the problems, and solutions.
      It's a damn shame the people who can make a change, do some good for the country, most often fuck it all up and get corrupted, aka politicians. Or, have a moment of brilliance, but get weird fast, like Nader.

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    2. and you have good examples of the foreign car makers avoiding import fees by making the cars in the USA. I've covered the factories before in posts, about BMW, Nissan, Honda. I also posted about Rolls Royce made in New York.

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    3. Now I wonder, are there car parts no longer made in the USA? Windshield wipers? Windshields? headlights? stuff like that.
      there must be at least 1000 big parts on a regular car, not including nuts, bolts, washers.
      Shocks, springs, rims.. I wonder if any of them are totally imported?

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    4. Something I forgot to add before is that there are some auto unions in developing countries, but I don't know how strong they are. I remember on one of my trips to South Korea, the union at GM Daewoo was on strike when I went for a meeting there. There were also some unions trying to get a foothold in India 10 or 15 years ago. I heard some stories that sounded like the early days of the UAW and Ford, with fighting between the union organizers and management.

      That's an interesting question about parts that are totally imported. I would guess that there might be some electronic parts that are only imported, like touchscreens or circuit boards, but I don't know other than that.

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  5. wow...all that, and you still don't answer the very simple question: Can you explain how the UAW demand is econimically feasible?

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    1. your reading comprehension isn't evolved enough to realize your question WAS answered by myself and others.

      I can repeat it, and you can try and read it slower, how about that?

      my answer:

      Let me dust off my masters in economics and show the charts and graphs where the union demand makes sense.

      OR, you can grow the hell up, and take a breath, and get some big picture context of a contract negotiation, plus a broad view of macro economics, AND some insight on 7 figure salary upper management of the corporations involved.

      OR, you can look at the average union worker's income, vs inflation, and how if they don't make something around 10% raise per year, effectively they make less each year as the cost of living, commuting to work, etc goes more expensive where they have stagnant wages.

      But it's not my job to answer your demand. I'm Just A Car Guy. Not an economics professor, so head over to the university, ask the prof.

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    2. curious - why don't you first explain why paying $millions to CEO's and Execs is economically feasible, and also why it is morally correct?

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